This episode is part of my podcast series DEAR ATHEIST… If you prefer, LISTEN NOW.
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I was directed to read this post written by an Atheist, who debunked the premise of Pascal’s wager, during a debate an a post about my post about whether God is easily offended. Pascal’s wager is often posed by Christians trying to defend their right to their Faith from unbelievers. It says simply that if God doesn’t exist, the Believer loses nothing, but if God exists, the unbeliever will suffer loss.
It is a good article for every Believer to read, especially those who are into apologetics, so they can better understand the atheistic perspective. I think my response to the authour, copied below, captures the problem Christians have with Atheists, which resort to them using Pascal’s wager, without even considering that someone has used that argument before them…
My response:
Hi Greta,
Great and challenging piece on the topic of faith and Pascal’s wager. I actually used it in a recent debate with an Atheist, and I will admit, it was made because I was “backed into the corner” regarding the issue of “proof”.
But that is the fallacy here… demanding proof to have “faith” is not actually to have faith at all, and that is what the logical atheist cannot appreciate.
For the record, I didn’t come to believe because Pascal’s wager was pointed to me, I simply believed, and my belief has been reinforced by a relationship with God. I also wouldn’t respect anyone who comes to belief because they are backed into the corner with Pascal’s wager.
Pascal’s wager is simply our way of saying you are asking us to throw away “faith” by reason of your demand for “proof”, but we value our faith more than your unbelief.
The Faith/Logic argument will be an unending one, not because faith has no logic, but because logic has no faith!
Sincerely, Ufuoma.
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Categories: Critical Thinking, Dear Atheist, Response Post, The Latest, True Religion
Grace and Truth 
I’m not so sure. If the premise was that:
God is holy and sovereign, he will destroy everyone who doesn’t believe in him,
and your eternal salvation rests on believing in him for salvation
saying you do and be spared from destruction
Saying you do and nothing happens
saying you don’t and getting what you deserve
saying you don’t and nothing happens.
If God doesn’t exist, then you have nothing to worry about.
And if he does, then the best thing to do is to believe so that you aren’t destroyed.
The problem with pascal’s wager is that it’s premise is written in the best possible light.
it’s not all that convincing for others who see God in the worst possible light.
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I agree with the problem as you have identified it 🙂
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Thank you for the link to my post. Pascal wager fails for another reason. It’s not completely honest with the specific god Pascal was trying to scare people into ‘betting’ on his existence. In the end, if the biblical god does exist, he would first off not be to pleased with people saying the believe or believing ‘just in case’, he wants people to follow of their own free will and out of love and faith (even from the nt: ‘whatsoever is not of faith is sin’, Pascale wager encourages you to believe out of fear), but also wouldn’t you think he would be able to spot your ‘ruse’ of ‘believing’ but only for selfish reasons?
Either way, Pascal was not honest and he was encouraging people to lie to God, the biblical god of life and death, out of fear, ‘just in case’ He actually existed. That’s not ‘of faith’, it’s of fear… and thus it is Sin as the nt verse indicates.
To clarify again…Even if the biblical god exists, Pascale wager encourages ‘believers’ to attempt tondeceive a god who would know better, lie out of fear and sin by believing not by faith, but out of fear of hell fire. Again, whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Please reevaluate your encouragement to Pascal’s wager. It’s encouraging people to lie to God and sin -kia
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Really KIA, you can’t do better than the authour of the post in debunking the wager. I read it and found it interesting and challenging like I told her. But Atheists keep missing the point… I doubt any Christian, including Pascal, was trying to get people to believe by proposing this wager. We are simply showing why we believe our choice is better. We didn’t believe because someone backed us into a corner either.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing of the word of God. If you don’t get it, then you just don’t. We are only defending our position from illogical people who demand proof to believe! That is illogical, and it is a catch 22.
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Thank you for finally releasing the comment. You are the one who uses Pascal’s wager on my post. Its a bit dishonest to now try to discredit it, even say that Pascal would never have used it, that’s really funny…
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There is something hindering you from understanding. I think you are intentionally trying to make me out to be saying what I did not say. Just like you were accusing me of all sorts on your blog…hoping perhaps I would react in a way to prove you right.
Please read and understand. I used Pascal wager on your blog, and I do not regret it and perhaps I will use it again! We believers know what we mean when we use it, like I communicated in this post… We are simply saying we prefer and value faith above your unbelief. We know that “even the devils believe and tremble” so getting people to believe and tremble is not our goal. But before you can know God, you must first believe that there is one… believing is the beginning and opens a dialogue for conversion.
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Isn’t the requirement to believe first, then ‘know’ a bit circular? How would you filter out your own imagination or even, as you do believe in satan and evil sprits, demonic influence pretending to be god or godly influence (See 2 cor 11)
The call to believe first, before you can believe is not lohical, rational or ethical in any way. It begs all kinds of credulity and the destruction of critical thought.
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You are operating from a place of unbelief, suspicion and fear…so faith will always evade you.
It’s sad because you are a deconvertee, and your antagonistic attitude on my blog and on yours hinders me from engaging you in a proper heartfelt discussion. You keep asking me if I am being honest and even accusing me of being dishonest, but it is you who is being dishonest…mostly about your reason for engagement.
I seriously doubt your interest is to regain faith, because you know all these things… If your interest is to deconvert me, give up now.
The carnal mind cannot comprehend the things of God, and while unbelievers may still come to faith because of their sincerity, I think your insincerity will mean that you will always be carnal.
Good luck with everything!
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If one must first Believe uncritically, then what could one not justify believing? I’m sure you would not afford the same privilege of truth so gained to Muslims telling you that Allah is the god of the universe. How exactly would you counter them using the same ‘believe first, then you will lnow’ arguments?
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Please consider this.. https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2016/08/31/jesus-n-mo-n-plantinga/
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Thanks. Have a good day.
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KIA has a valid point – if it were just fire insurance, then it would be a simple matter for everyone to say that they believe and hell will have a human population of zero. But it’s not – Calvinists would say that God predestined the elect for salvation, the flip-side of that equation is that everyone else is predestined to go to hell. Romans 9 talks about pottery designed as objects of wrath. In that light, for some people, Pascal’s wager fails them because they never had a choice about whether or not they get to believe in the first place.
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Thanks Jamie. I appreciate what you have said. I’m not trying to debate the pros and cons of Pascal’s wager. The lady did a good job in my opinion explaining why it can’t fly for Atheists… My point was simply that Christians say such only when backed to the corner regarding the issue of proof, which is an ILLOGICAL expectation to have faith. What the Atheist is demanding is illogical. And so, all we are saying with the wager is, we believe our position is better, and if they are actually right about there being no god, it wouldn’t make a difference to us.
If Pascal’s wager was genuinely used to convince people to come to Christ, then it fails on all the issues raised by Greta, and the issue of predestination, which she didn’t address…and neither did KIA by the way. You’re actually the first to point that out.
Cheers, Ufuoma.
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I have taught Apologetics and Philosophy – therefore I am very familiar with Pascal’s Wager ~
Pascal from my knowledge said he was going to “believe” to basically be on the safe side but the Bible tells us
even the demons believe in God ~ but as we know the demons believe but they will not make Jesus their Lord and Savior –
repent of their sins and live a life for Jesus.
I personally believe that just believing that God exists without a “heart” change is truly becoming a Child of God ~
Jesus says in the end times there will be those who say to Him that they believed but Jesus said away from me I do not know you.
Hence there was never a personal relationship with Jesus ~
Thank you for posting this and asking for others thoughts : )
God bless
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Thanks dear… I really don’t believe Pascal’s wager presents a case for believing, but is more a defence for our Faith…but the Atheists choose to read all sorts of meaning into it.
I appreciate your contribution 🙂
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Thank you & you’re very welcome.
I guess since I am passionate about Apologetics – I kind of wonder if using Pascal’s Wager is a strong defense in the eyes of atheists ~ then again it might …
I am going to believe in God if I am wrong then I’ve only lived my life better …
Being a Christian is difficult in this world that is for sure.
I enjoy your blog posts !! Keep writing and God bless : )
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Thanks dear! I appreciate your feedback. Keep reading and commenting, and God bless you too x
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seriously you rightly nail it! The bible says faith is of thee heart and
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…….. sorry i mistaken thumb send
Faith ought to be from the heart. Like I often reiterates those who push skink stinks. It means whatever you believe in must have effect on your heart.
Its possible to believe with just lip service
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True word! Thanks for sharing 🙂
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Thank you so much D’Dream ! I just believe having head knowledge of God is not what it is about – it’s a relationship and just knowing or believing God exists does not imply a relationship.
Just my two cents : ) God bless !!!
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So succinct and perfect. Even the comments are enlightening. Most people truly say there is a God because they think their argument is the better one. They’re not really trying to get them to believe on this God.
Any yes the argument will last because the premise for faith and unbelief are apart and can never meet otherwise it ceases to be faith.
Thanks for thia
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Thanks for adding your voice Debby 🙂
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If god doesn’t exist the believer wasted time and energy trying to please and manipulate a non existing god. When he or she could have focused on and achieved something worthwhile in the here and now.
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That only applies IF you are right. It’s a big if and a foolish gamble in my opinion. And besides, there is a lot of good belief in God gives to those who have faith, and also to the world at large.
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All life is a gamble. And how do you know you are right? I have seen unbelievers who are far more humane and moral than professed believers.
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The reason for the debate is because we both could be wrong. Like you said, all life is a gamble. I am sure of mine.
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Since Darwin’s discovery shook the foundations of those mythical cathedrals of serpentine deception, I became sure of where we came from. By then I had already wasted 15 years in the church. I have given you my reason, what’s yours?
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Have you read the post you are commenting on? Perhaps you can read the other posts on my blog! They represent the many reasons I believe in God. Here’s one by that title: https://ufuomaee.blog/2015/08/11/if-i-didnt-believe-in-god/
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I knew your reasons will relate to your feelings and that’s fine. I’m not an atheist and I’m not trying to convince you not to worship your god…atleast you feel good whenever you call on him and that’s all it is, a feeling. I’m just saying don’t insult, castigate, condemn or discriminate against people who don’t share your beliefs or opinions because I observe that in almost every religious jingoist.
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“I’m just saying don’t insult, castigate, condemn or discriminate against people”
I observe this even among unbelievers. On what basis are you attacking me?
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It’s an observation. Why would I “attack” you.
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Okay. Observation noted. Thanks for stopping by 🙂
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You’re welcome.
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Unsurprisingly, the Christian tries to claim that one has to have blind faith, but even their bible says that this isn’t needed. This god has no problem in being tested or giving evidence of itself. We see this in this Malachai 3 and that bit with Thomas. The Christian’s problem is taht they know their god fails any test since it is imaginary, so they must insist that no one test it or require evidence.
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Hi dear,
If you truly believe God is inviting you to test Him with those scriptures you know of and cited, please go ahead and test Him.
Christians do not tell you not to expect from God. We expect from Him all the time. He invites us to ask, and belief, and we have seen Him at work in answering our prayers.
But Jesus does warn that it is an evil generation that seeks a sign… And He said the only sign He would give to confirm His claim of being the Son of God is the sign of Jonah. Just as Jonah was three days in the belly of the whale, so Jesus was three days in the belly of the Earth… well, in the grave.
Jesus coming was a fulfilment of prophesy, His death was a sign, yet it wasn’t sufficient for many of the Jews to believe.
But no one will stop you from waiting and expecting a sign from God. God honours who He will and shows mercy on whom He pleases. Good luck!
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I have tested this god. It failed. Alas, no prayers have been answered. You all claim that they have but funny how on one else can see this god doing anything. No healing of anyone with a visible illness or injury. Now why is that, Ufuomaee?
Alas, Jesus had no problem in giving signs (do remember Thomas, dear), and said directly that the miracles he did were the signs he was who he claimed.
Unsurprisingly, no one even saw the “sign of Jonah”.
Try again, Ufuomaee.
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You really should learn to speak for yourself. You keep saying no one as if you know everyone’s experience, but discount my testimony. If I and many others testify of answered prayers, then you saying no one is you lying or speaking arrogantly.
Own your perspective.
God is not a genie, and no, it has not been 100% answered prayers, at least in the ways I expected, but I still have faith in Him.
All the best to you.
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You discount the testimony of other theists. Why think yours is any more true?
And gee, your god says it will answer prayers, with what is asked for, no substitutions, and answer them quickly. Now why would you choose to lie about your bible and your god?
“1 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; but if you do not, then believe me because of the works themselves. 12 Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If in my name you ask me[e] for anything, I will do it.” John 14
“16 You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name. 17 I am giving you these commands so that you may love one another.” John 15
“16 You did not choose me but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit, fruit that will last, so that the Father will give you whatever you ask him in my name. 17 I am giving you these commands so that you may love one another.” Matthew 7
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It’s like you’re not listening. I don’t have anything new to say, but I wish you well.
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No, Ufuoamaee, I’m listening quite well. You are assume that if I listen to you, I must agree.
You claimed this “God is not a genie, and no, it has not been 100% answered prayers, at least in the ways I expected, but I still have faith in Him.”
your bible shows you are wrong. You, like every other Christian, has invented reasons why this god won’t do what the bible has it promising. The reason you must invent reasons is that you know this god will do nothing.
I have tested this god. It failed. Alas, no prayers have been answered. You all claim that they have but funny how on one else can see this god doing anything. No healing of anyone with a visible illness or injury. Now why is that, Ufuomaee?
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Geez, you love repeating yourself. Please re-read our conversation, because I don’t like repeating myself.
No, I don’t think you have to agree with me to be listening to me. But when you keep repeating yourself, not acknowledging what I am saying, then yes, I do think you are not listening.
Here you go again saying “no one has seen”. Speak for yourself.
Please note that if your post another repetitive comment, I will not approve it.
Have a nice day.
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I have acknowledged what you are saying. Responding to it and showing how you are wrong would be rather difficult if I hadn’t read and considered. it.
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