Critical Thinking

Let The Little Children Come Unto Me


There are many attacks against the Christian faith and our duty to spread the good news to everyone. Most attacks are fundamental, which is to say that they try to breakdown our very belief in the existence of God, through the spread of atheism, which seems to be getting more drastic.  When they can’t get us to denounce our beliefs, they attack His nature and qualities, as though by labeling Him as bad, we will suddenly wake up from our trance!

If they meet a road block there, the next attack is usually against the Bible, being our primary reference point for our beliefs and the teaching of Heaven and Hell. The main defense is that we have no right to judge others and that right and wrong is relative to culture. Also, they seek to disprove the Biblical stories with ‘scientific evidence’, even though the sphere of science is yet to be fully comprehended by the human mind! They arrogantly ignore the many scientists who have eventually had to conclude that ‘there must be a God’.

Other attacks have come under the ‘tolerance’ agenda, where the result is the exaltation of self and sexual freedom. However ‘religious extremism’ is not tolerated, and the definition of extreme is getting broader and broader, so that religion itself seems to stand as the opposite of tolerance!

That leads us to the final attack – the prohibition of religion. Though it is not illegal yet, that’s where it’s all leading to. Religion is no longer appreciated in Western schools, and teaching children about God is seen as an exploitation of their vulnerability, because it is assumed that they are unable to decide for themselves what is true, and will succumb based on their relationship with the teacher, rather than a thorough analysis of the truth. The end result of such reasoning is to eventually accuse parents who teach their children to love and fear God of child abuse!

In the meantime, there are no restrictions on the filth that children are taught in schools concerning their gender and self-image, sexuality and relationships, evolutionary based science and the idea that their purpose in life is to be rich and famous! So the anti-God agenda gets free reign in schools and public spaces, under the tolerance agenda, while people of faith are openly persecuted and abused, but made to think they have the same rights to their beliefs, its expression, association and life as others.

The good news is that we don’t need the world’s approval to teach our children (and ANY child that we come across) about God and the Salvation He prepared through Jesus Christ! Jesus has clearly commanded us to go into all the world making disciples of everyone. And in case we wonder about the age of consent, He emphasized, for our benefit – maybe for such a time as this – that we should not hinder the little children from coming to Him!

“Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

(Matt 19:14)

Photo credit: http://www.mydailydevotionorg.blogspot.com

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232 replies »

  1. Reblogged this on Armor Of God Foundation and commented:
    There are many attacks against the Christian faith and our duty to spread the good news to everyone. Most attacks are fundamental, which is to say that they try to breakdown our very belief in the existence of God, through the spread of atheism, which seems to be getting more drastic. When they can’t get us to denounce our beliefs, they attack His nature and qualities, as though by labeling Him as bad, we will suddenly wake up from our trance!

    If they meet a road block there, the next attack is usually against the Bible, being our primary reference point for our beliefs and the teaching of Heaven and Hell. The main defense is that we have no right to judge others and that right and wrong is relative to culture. Also, they seek to disprove the Biblical stories with ‘scientific evidence’, even though the sphere of science is yet to be fully comprehended by the human mind! The arrogantly ignore the many scientists who have eventually had to conclude that ‘there must be a God’.

    Other attacks have come under the ‘tolerance’ agenda, where the result is the exaltation of self and sexual freedom. However ‘religious extremism’ is not tolerated, and the definition of extreme is getting broader and broader, so that religion itself seems to stand as the opposite of tolerance!

    That leads us to the final attack – the prohibition of religion. Though it is not illegal yet, that’s where it’s all leading to. Religion is no longer appreciated in Western schools, and teaching children about God is seen as an exploitation of their vulnerability, because it is assumed that they are unable to decide for themselves what is true, and will succumb based on their relationship with the teacher, rather than a thorough analysis of the truth. The end result of such reasoning is to eventually accuse parents who teach their children to love and fear God of child abuse!

    Liked by 1 person

  2. We are living out Roman’s chapter one. When I was a child in the 60’s, I remember Look magazine declaring God dead on the cover. As far as our culture goes, it’s been down hill ever since. Not that it was perfect back then, it wasn’t but kicking God out hasn’t helped anyone. Now people are so lost in the sin of pleasure seeking and fulfilling personal desires that they can’t even see what their ‘lifestyle’ is doing to them. We may have to die in order to lift Jesus but that it what is needed and what we are required to do, no matter what!

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Without a secular democratic society you would not likely have the freedom to practice your religion. You may wish to consider that in days past( and not that far back either) the Christian religion of the day was Catholicism and it ruled with an iron fist. It was as near as makes no difference a theocracy. And the brand of Christianity you practice would have ensured you would likely have been burned at the stake. This is worth bearing in mind.

    I would never dream in a million years of banning a religion, as this would make me as bad as the religions I reject.
    But the freedom you are granted in a democratic secular society does not mean you should have the liberty or the right to indoctrinate or insist that your religion is given preferential treatment over and above every other religious belief and the non religious.
    This you ought to know and respect.
    And this respect of individual freedom and the accompanying rights should extend to children.

    Liked by 6 people

  4. (and ANY child that we come across) about God and the Salvation He prepared through Jesus Christ!

    Actually I think you will find you do, and if you ever tried to do a number on my children you would be slapped with a restraining order before you could say ‘Jesus never used deodorant.’

    Liked by 2 people

      • Sounded like a joke to me. Considering I’m way over here in Nigeria. In any case, if I did run into your kids, I’ll be sure to ask the Social Worker minding them, if it’s okay for me to tell them about Jesus.

        Like

      • I know you are in Nigeria. Is Nigeria not a secular democracy? It was the last time I looked? Did it change over the weekend or did Boko Haram finally show you just how wonderful religion really could be if you just let go of your prejudice and embraced Allah?

        Liked by 2 people

      • I did not berate you. My post wasn’t about you. It was about our Christian responsibility and liberty to raise our children to love and obey God. I’ve already written my bit about other religions, Islam included, under The Search Is Over. When the Lord inspires me to write more on Islam, I won’t be afraid to.

        But, I will say one thing, thank you! Our discussion the other day did inspire me to think more about whether or not children should be exempt from evangelism. That’s how God reminded me about what Jesus said… hence the post. So, thanks!

        Like

      • I didn’t take it personally. There is more than one atheist.
        Children should be exempt from evangelism. And you should take serious heed of this because Boko Haram might soon be knocking on your door.
        And that would be an interesting turn of events, would it not?
        And lets; not forget the girls who were kidnapped. Do you thing they were exempted from Islamic ”evangelism”
        Oh,and there is no margin for exceptions here. Remember that.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Deviating? My goodness this is a major issue in the world right now, especially with ISIS, and therefore to dismiss what is happening with Boko Haram and the abductions with a hand wave gesture of ”fear mongering” is shameful!
        Just because they are not your religion does not make what you believe necessarily any more palatable, it just does not practice overt violence.
        You need to recognise that if they take over Sharia Law will be instituted immediately and you as a Christian will be – excuse the phrase – dog meat.
        This is the very real danger of extremist religion.
        Once you are prepared to acknowledge this then you might begin to respect secular democracy and the very real need to keep religion all religion away from kids as much as possible.

        Liked by 5 people

      • Hi Ark, you make a valid point that extremism is dangerous. But it isn’t only religious extremism.

        Yes, secular democracy has its benefits in tolerating a diversity of views. But the point of my piece was to show that the primary view that is heralded and fed to everyone is that of secularism itself, which by removing God from the equation is anti-God.

        Christianity isn’t extremist in any way. Have men abused religion and Christianity to perpetrate all kinds of evil? Most certainly. The problem isn’t religion, the problem is men. Just as the Internet is a means by which much evil is spread…but the problem isn’t the Internet, it is men!

        Christianity is good, and I will continue to defend our right to share this goodness with the world, because it is the solution the world needs – not atheism, which is all secular democracy endorses.

        I think you’re bringing Boko Haram into this, because you’re hoping that that will incite some religious passion/hatred in me, and will deviate from what I am actually saying. If you’re so concerned about Boko Haram, maybe there’s something you can do about it, besides talking…

        Liked by 1 person

      • I was challenged by an atheist on the comment I made about Ark’s children, as it was offensive and derogatory to Ark. I admitted that it was a snide remark and apologised for that. Unfortunately, as a human, I’m still prone to error. Nobody is perfect so I’m not ashamed to admit wrong and apologize.

        Liked by 2 people

  5. No one is suggesting banning religion or removing gods,yours or anyone else’s. When god belief diminishes and religion eventually dies out, it will happen due to the natural and gradual progression of a civilised world that uses empathy, reason and critical thought. That values human and animal life and does not threaten fellow humans with eternal torture and damnation for not believing in their particular god. That cares for each other without the need to appeal to any deity for moral guidance. Where humankind helps each other simply because it’s the right thing to do It this truly so difficult for you to comprehend?

    But there are likely always going to be some people who will believe in gods, no matter what.

    I raised the issue of Boko Harem because it demonstrates perfectly what religious extremism is capable of and they are right on your godamn doorstep for goodness’ sake!
    And if for one second you think your religion is exempt from extremism you are naive beyond belief.
    Furthermore, if you are so callous that you truly believe teaching evolution is instrumental in perpetrating the moral degradation of schoolkids and increasing their chances of committing suicide then you are one disturbed lady.

    Liked by 3 people

    • No one needs to suggest banning religion… That’s just where the ship without a Sailor (i.e. God) is going to end up! You see this as a progressive change, but I see it as regressive.

      The Bible warns us about it, so we are not surprised. We know what’s going on. We know we can’t stop it from happening… but we also hope that our resistance will allow enough time and create enough awareness to cause many to repent.

      You are professing that men are altogether good, and we can live in peace with just laws and our good hearts. Is that to imply that all the child trafficking, rape, pornography, pedophilia and other social vices are due to religion? So that, when we take religion and God out of it, we’ll all just behave???

      You’re running from the truth, but you won’t get very far. But that’s your decision. I’ve done my part.

      Do have a good night.

      Like

      • No, of course all the bad is not due to religion. I did not even hint at such a thing. However, you are most certainly saying that being godless is the cause of this.
        Yet statistics show that your belief is fallacious and without substance.
        The atrocious violence in your own country proves this without me having to lift a bother finger.
        And as I have pointed out numerous times there are a great many gods, and it can be seen that the middle eastern god you and Muslims worship is the most violent god currently worshiped on the planet, so this flies in the face of your assertion.

        The truth is that the bible is a creation of humans, and it is a vile , violence ridden bronze/stone age derivative compilation of nonsense.

        That the more civilised, educated and enlightened people are walking away from it is testimony of their understanding of the truth.
        I have no desire to force anyone in this regard, but thousands of gods and thousands of religions have died off and been forgotten.
        Yours will eventually go the same way.

        Liked by 3 people

    • All I can say, here, is that a white (transplanted) South African man, telling a Nigerian woman what to do in her country about Boko Haram, whilst ignoring the racism, intolerance, and continued segregation in his chosen country of residence, is beyond ironic.

      No, I’m not taking sides, either – I’m not an atheist and I’m not a fundamentalist – I’m just watching this conversation / debate / argument play out, and it is fascinating.

      Liked by 2 people

      • I am not telling her what to do about Boko Haram, but rather trying to point out just how disgusting and heinous religious extremism is; which includes her religion.
        There is racism the world over. And for what it’s worth we have one of the better constitutions in the world and one of the more stable countries too.
        And just what segregation are you
        talking about?
        Do you know anything about my country or do you simply read People Magazine and the back of Cornflakes packets?

        Like

      • I would still like an answer please to your accusation that South Africa still practices segregation If you realise that you have in fact made a mistake I will accept a retraction if you are up to it?

        Like

    • Which god are you talking about Dan.
      Hate is a christian thing. I hate noone or anything …. well maybe Manchester United on a really bad day.
      So, tell me which god you are referring to please, Dan, then we can further this chat.

      Liked by 2 people

    • That’s an absurd conclusion, Dan – I’m an atheist, and I could no more hate your nonexistent god, than I could hate a unicorn or a Leprechaun.

      Liked by 3 people

  6. Two things about atheists. (1) They say God doesn’t exist. (2) they hate him. So they rage against God and those who believe in him. I never tire of saying that. Some atheists are capable of intelligent conversation. Ark doesn’t seem to be one of those.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Dan, do really believe in your heart that every act of a non-believer is vile? This is what Psalm 14:1 says.

      So when the former Australian ophthalmologist Fred Hollows provided eye sight saving operations for no cost to some of the worlds poorest people that was a vile act, because he did not believe in a god?

      Liked by 2 people

  7. Let the little children come to Me” – There’s a good reason for this, that’s when they are most vulnerable, most open to programming. Their cerebral cortex – the part that makes intelligent decisions – won’t be fully developed until they reach maturity, which is why we restrict children from driving, drinking alcohol, smoking, marrying, voting, signing legal contracts, or doing anything else that requires a rational decision.

    Liked by 4 people

      • We don’t threaten. We teach.

        When your teacher encourages you to study and not waste time on too much play, because that’s a recipe for failure, is that a threat that you will fail??? No, it’s a warning given in love. That’s what we do, when we teach children about God and His love and justice.

        Like

      • No, this is an outright untruth. Failure to believe and worship your god means they will be sent to Hell ( another Christian construct, by the way), or as you like to dance with semantics, those who choose to reject your god, choose to go to Hell, that your loving (sic) god created especially for children like them, yes?

        If you wish to challenge this interpretation, ask a deconvertee of their fundamentalist upbringing.
        And isn’t this what you were told?

        Liked by 2 people

      • I think this is where Jon should come in with his grammar lesson.

        A threat is a statement of intention of harm, which will be metted out if the person is not compliant. They are not usually backed by any real potential of harm.

        A warning is an advice to apply caution and take right action against real danger.

        I guess, where you stand, you see a threat because you claim that you’re not in danger. But, those who don’t warn others of danger when they have foresight of it are the most wicked of all.

        I believe my Bible, when it says you are not ignorant, but have chosen to reject the truth. I will warn you of the dangers of your way. It’s not a threat, because it is a very real and present danger to you and those who listen and follow you to ignore it.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Are you suggesting that a great ma y Christians, from clergy down to laypeople have not wielded the threat of Hell for non compliance, and don’t do it today?
        You are either suffering from gross ignorance or are simply lying through your teeth.
        How many statements from deconvertees would you require to apologise for such a wanton statement of disinformation?
        Are you truly that ignorant that you are unaware what Jews, for example, once went through in Portugal and what they were threatened with?
        Your bible is a crass, revolting collection of filth and superstitious nonsense.
        You are ignorant of its contents, history, and etymology.

        Your bible would not even make a worthwhile substitute as toilet paper.

        And it is because of people of your ilk that active steps need t be taken t ensure children are not subject to your brand of mental illness.

        I pity you.

        Liked by 2 people

      • I also pity you, Ark. You can’t seem to communicate with spitting vermin. You should get that checked.

        I think I’ve pointed out before that Christianity can be and has been abused, just like many other good things are abused by corrupt men. Examples are the abuse of sex, knowledge and technology. With power comes great potential for abuse, as well as great potential for good.

        You talk as one who is ignorant of the free will of men. I do not speak for everyone who claims to believe in God or Christ, and I seek to justify no one. The truth speaks for itself.

        If people were forcefully converted with threats, then that’s as evil as anyone being sexually abused. But sex isn’t wrong and neither is Christianity! Use your head to make that distinction and stop attacking what you don’t know or understand.

        Good day.

        Like

      • I spit vermin?
        What sort: mice, rats? Would cheese help do you think or would this merely encourage them?

        People are born into a culture and that culture may or may not adhere to a religion.
        Your fundamentalist version of christianity, which incorporates the nonsense of biblical literalism and Young Earth Creationism, only came to real prominence in the late 19th early 20th century which is nigh on 2000 years after your so called man – god strutted his stuff in complete anonymity around Roman occupied Palestine.

        Christianity is built upon false premise, and I will put my life up that you cannot demonstrate otherwise, so how can it be considered a force for good in any real circumstances ?

        It has lied and cheated and robbed its way across the globe.
        Your own country/continent,carved up and colonized by European powers that were all Christian. Your ancestors, treated like sub-humans, and sold into slavery by Christians.

        Furthermore, it requires adherents to deem themselves born sinful (evil, bad,take your pick) and then spend the rest of their lives trying to atone. for something they had no control of.
        To ensure compliance the warning (sic) of Hell ( a christian construct that the character Jesus of Nazareth did not teach) is indoctrinated into followers.
        You state it is taught as a warning yet what do you tell children if they refuse to comply with your ”warnings”?
        That when they die they will spend eternity being tortured in Hell.
        How is this not a threat?

        Not forcibly converted?
        The Jews in Portugal, and in other countries were forced to convert to Christianity or be driven out of the country or worse, largely o the back of Christian doctrine as promoted by Luther.
        In Portugal, Jews changed their names and tacitly adopted Christianity to avoid prosecution and violence from Christians. Many began calling themselves after the names of trees.
        My wife’s name is de Pinho, which means Pine.

        Where versions of Christianity were considered heretical 16th church attempted to liquidate followers – the Cathars are a perfect example.
        The history of Christianity steeped in blood.
        That is the reality of your faith.

        Liked by 3 people

      • If I could bare all those sins on my head I would. Unfortunately, I also need Jesus to carry that burden for me, so I’m not going to let you put any more on me.

        We’re going round in circles here, and I’m no closer to dropping my faith. Nor do I renounce my post or my liberty and duty to teach about God’s love to ‘innocent’ children, as you say.

        For someone who would NEVER DREAM of prohibiting my human right to religion, you’re sure investing a lot of time in hating it and abusing me and everyone else for it.

        When will you focus on your own sins? Or is this the real problem… You don’t want to be convicted of sin?

        Liked by 1 person

      • I cannot help that your religion is responsible for some of the most heinous crimes humanity has known.
        The least you could is to acknowledge that I am merely telling you the truth. and warning you in case it should happen again.
        Oh,wait a minute …. Islam is already doing it.
        And you have Boko Haram just up the road, don’t you?
        Of course we are going around in circles, this is what religious indoctrination does to people.

        I am not abusing you at all; merely standing up to the erroneous and fallacious post that states that secular humanism and teaching evolution encourages drug addiction and child suicide.
        I am merely exercising freedom of speech. Something that will be severely curtailed should Boko Haram have their way in your country.
        And they worship the same god too.

        But if you consider my rebuttal fallacious then provide evidence to back your claims.

        You can start with Yeshua Ben Joseph if you like, and provide contemporary evidence for his existence.and the miracles he supposedly performed.

        Sin is a religious concept that I do not acknowledge.
        As for my sins, maybe you should look at the plank in your eye?
        Start with acknowledging and telling the truth.
        It would make a nice change.

        Liked by 2 people

      • I’ve read it before.
        So what? He is a christian and he denounces you’re nonsensical presuppositional fundamentalism as well.

        It’s about time you started being honest and deal with the truth of what your religion is: a purveyor of lies.

        Liked by 1 person

      • …those who don’t warn others of danger when they have foresight of it are the most wicked of all” – Finally, we are in complete agreement about something – which is why I’m warning you of the danger of wasting your life, trying to follow the edicts of 3000-year old, anonymous, superstitious, scientifically-ignorant Bronze and Iron Age men.

        ***Edited by Ufuomaee. Video link erased***

        Liked by 1 person

      • You’re thoroughly confusing me, Ufuoma – on the one hand, in the premise of your blog entry, you criticize the fact that in school, children are taught, “the idea that their purpose in life is to be rich and famous,” yet you follow that with the comment about “your teacher encourages you to study and not waste time on too much play, because that’s a recipe for failure.” Don’t you find that a bit contradictory? And are children in school REALLY being taught that “the idea that their purpose in life is to be rich and famous,” or is that an exaggeration, and they’re actually being taught to be self-sustaining, productive members of society?

        However, I can accept your statement, “We don’t threaten. We teach” as being true – it is your Bible that threatens – as teachers, you merely pass on the message and make sure that little children understand what horrors their ‘loving god” has in store for them if they don’t believe without question.

        I’ve always found this to be an interesting quotation, by one of the true heroes of your continent:

        “When the white missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said ‘Let us pray.’ We closed our eyes. When we opened them, we had the Bible and they had the land.”
        — Desmond Tutu —

        Liked by 1 person

      • So as not to further confuse you, I’ll take the time to answer your comment point by point.

        You said:
        You’re thoroughly confusing me, Ufuoma – on the one hand, in the premise of your blog entry, you criticize the fact that in school, children are taught, “the idea that their purpose in life is to be rich and famous,” yet you follow that with the comment about “your teacher encourages you to study and not waste time on too much play, because that’s a recipe for failure.” Don’t you find that a bit contradictory?
        My response:
        No, I don’t think that is contradictory at all! How many subjects are you taught in class? Do all the ideas in the various subjects agree? We are taught many things, and generally, we are all encouraged to study hard and minimize our play.
        You said:
        And are children in school REALLY being taught that “the idea that their purpose in life is to be rich and famous,” or is that an exaggeration, and they’re actually being taught to be self-sustaining, productive members of society?
        My response:
        Now, it may sound absurd to you that I would say that children are being taught that the their purpose in life is to make money and be famous. But it really isn’t that absurd when you think about the fact that every teaching has an ideology behind it! My whole blog is built on the ideology that God must be the centre of our lives. Someone else’s blog might have the central ideology that food or music or fashion is everything, or they may have many different ideological views they share. Children are always asking the meaning of life and what their purpose is on Earth. If you have a curriculum that rejects the ideology that God must be central in their lives, then you certainly need to give them an alternative ideology to live their lives by. Judging by the number of academics who spend their lives trying to acquire wealth and fame, I have to conclude that THAT is the central ideology being fed to them at school…
        You said:
        However, I can accept your statement, “We don’t threaten. We teach” as being true – it is your Bible that threatens – as teachers, you merely pass on the message and make sure that little children understand what horrors their ‘loving god” has in store for them if they don’t believe without question.
        My response:
        My Bible doesn’t compel people to believe without question. God invites people to come and reason with Him (Isaiah 1:18). God also doesn’t make threats. He issues warnings, and He is faithful to follow through on them. Also, children are taught consequences in a loving way, especially as they are first taught that they are forgiven… that they are accepted… that they are loved! And also, they are taught that in Christ, they have liberty, but also power and grace to live right. This gives them security and hope to have a relationship with God, not to live in fear of His judgement.
        You said:
        I’ve always found this to be an interesting quotation, by one of the true heroes of your continent:
        “When the white missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said ‘Let us pray.’ We closed our eyes. When we opened them, we had the Bible and they had the land.”
        — Desmond Tutu —
        My response:
        That’s very funny! I guess the white people did not appreciate the treasure in their possession… Psalm 19:9-11

        Like

      • I disagree with a lot of the things you’ve said in your response to me, but to go back through them would resolve nothing, as you would still hold to your beliefs, and I to mine. I DO get the impression, however, that you don’t know a great deal about the history of the Bible, about how it came to be – I would suggest you study that from a variety of angles, not just from a Christian perspective. You might be surprised what you learn.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Mind if I say dito?” – Not at all, it is your blog, and as such, you’re free to say anything you like. If you’re asking if I’ll take offense at it, no, of course not.

        Are you aware, for example, that except for the 3-page book of Micah, and the first 8 chapters (of 14) of Zechariah, the entire Old Testament was written by anonymous authors, whose credibility we can never question?

        And that the following epistles, were the only ones that Paul actually wrote:
        Corinthians I
        Corinthians II
        Romans
        Galatians
        Philippians
        Thessalonians I
        Philemon

        — that all of the others:
        Timothy I
        Timothy II
        Titus
        Thessalonians II
        Ephesians
        Colossians

        — were forgeries? And that other than those, the entire New Testament was written anonymously, as well?

        Liked by 1 person

      • Please permit me to quote from one of the books, which you consider to be true:

        1 Corinthians 15:
        1Co 15:1
        Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
        1Co 15:2
        By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
        1Co 15:3
        For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
        1Co 15:4
        And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
        1Co 15:5
        And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
        1Co 15:6
        After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
        1Co 15:7
        After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
        1Co 15:8
        And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
        1Co 15:9
        For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
        1Co 15:10
        But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
        1Co 15:11
        Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
        1Co 15:12
        Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
        1Co 15:13
        But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
        1Co 15:14
        And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
        1Co 15:15
        Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
        1Co 15:16
        For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
        1Co 15:17
        And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
        1Co 15:18
        Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
        1Co 15:19
        If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

        But, as he goes on… our hope is not in vain, because Christ indeed came and died for all and is now risen and glorified. Amen and Amen.

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      • After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.” – This directly contradicts all four of the Gospels, nowhere do any of the four, anonymous Gospel writers say that Yeshua was seen by 500 people. Both can’t be true, one needs to choose which to believe.

        Paul suffered from the delusions caused by temporal-lobe epilepsy, and because of that delusion, essentially hi-jacked the Christian religion from the actual apostles.

        Liked by 2 people

      • I don’t see the contradiction. Just because they didn’t mention it doesn’t mean Paul’s account is false.

        By the way, who made that diagnosis of Paul, and what are their credentials?

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      • but nope. I STILL BELIEVE

        I’m not surprised, but neither do I condemn you for it – as I said, you’ve been heavily indoctrinated.

        Let me ask you a personal question – my native language is English, but I lived for a number of years in Mexico, where I learned Spanish, but if I ran into a situation where I was expected to use Spanish idioms or slang terms, I couldn’t do it. Both you and Ujuh speak exactly like Americans, using words like, “nope” – how do you do it? I’m so envious of your (plural) abilities!

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      • I did also study in the UK” – Yeah, but believe me, Ark is British, and I can’t understand a word he says – there’s a reason we kicked them out!

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      • The first year I lived in Mexico, before I rented a villa directly across the street from the Pacific, I lived next door to a family that had a little boy who spoke perfect English, although his parents couldn’t speak a word. I asked him once if he had learned it in school, he told me, “No, cartoons!”

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      • You’re aware, of course, that all four of the Gospel writers wrote anonymously, and weren’t even assigned the names they have until about 200 AD. “Mark” wrote his Gospel about 72 AD, a full 30 years after Yeshua died (if he ever existed), and five years later, “Matthew” wrote his, copying a full 90% of his Gospel directly from “Mark,” while “Luke,” a full ten years after that, copied about 60% of his from “Mark,” a bit from “Matthew,” and the rest from yet another anonymous writer, who has been called “Q,” whose writings didn’t survive. Lastly, “John” wrote his own Gospel, which in many cases directly contradicts that of “Mark,” Matthew,” and “Luke,” shortly after 100 AD, a full 70 years after the fact – proof positive that he could not possibly have known Yeshua or have witnessed anything about which he wrote.

        Don’t take my word for it, research it yourself.

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      • Still? It’s merely an elaboration of what I was saying earlier.

        Although Tolstoy wrote fiction, it was based on fact – how do I know this? Because he was a Russian who lived during the time he wrote about, and the historical parts of his novels can be checked against the facts of other historians of his time. To believe anything written, it’s important to know who wrote it, when, and what their credentials were. Those of the gospel writers are sorely lacking.

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      • I think the problem is that we are communicating on about three or four different threads…

        The one about how it seems you’re belittling my understanding of my faith. Please scroll through.

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      • I am NOT belittling your understanding of your faith, but on the other hand, I have no idea what you do and don’t know about the history of the making of the Bible, and so I’m providing discussion topics of which you may not be aware – no belittling, just trying to see what you do and don’t know.

        Liked by 1 person

      • I said more in my comment. However, the main point was that I don’t believe I’m your target audience for the knowledge you feel inclined to share about the Bible, its history and any other scientific evidences you think I should know.

        Thanks.

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      • I thought you were already in bed – and I’m not trying to keep you up, but RE: “I don’t believe I’m your target audience,” why not? I’m fascinated by learning anything and everything I can, why wouldn’t you want to know how your Bible came to be? It seems to me, that would be important to you.

        Liked by 1 person

      • You win – I’ll go back and read it in the morning, but it’s past my bedtime here, and I’m too sleepu to comprehend what I read.

        Liked by 1 person

      • OK, Ufuoma, I’m up (sort of – still working on my first coffee), and I haven’t yet re-read the comment you asked me to consider, but that’s next.

        I HAVE, however, read your entry, “If I Didn’t Believe In God,” as you asked, and although I didn’t set out conditions for reading it, I think it only fair that you read something for me – Leaving My Religion Was Nothing Like Entering It, by Neil Carter. Hopefully, you’ll find other entries by Neil that will interest you as well.

        Having read, “If I Didn’t Believe In God,” I’m convinced of a number of things:
        1) You have not had an easy life and some rather unpleasant things have happened to you,
        2) You have convinced yourself that your survival has been entirely dependent upon an invisible, supernatural spirit, while I believe that your strength lies within YOU, and that doubting that, is your worst enemy, not atheists, and most certainly not “Satan.”
        And further, that,
        3) You are so thoroughly convinced that #2 is true, that you could actually become suicidal if your belief system were taken from you or put in doubt, and so I will no longer question your decision to retain it – at least until you come to the realization (if you ever do), that the REAL strength you possess is your own. I DO however beg you to stop believing the biblical BS that insists that because you are Human, you are automatically bad, and that because you are a woman, you are automatically weak or at least inferior – neither are true.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Hi Arch, thanks for reading my post on If I Didn’t Believe In God. I appreciate that. I will also read the link you sent.

        However, I must say you’re so wrong on your conclusions. It would be like me saying you left God because He didn’t come through for you. I am actually from an affluent family. The worst suffering I’ve endured was the loss of my brother.

        I do however have a story to tell, but I’m not ready yet. Waiting on God.

        I am a strong woman. Anyone who knows me know that. I am inferior to no one. As a human, I know that I am prone to error, as you and others have seen on this blog. I do not think we are naturally good as you assert. You only have to look at the state of the world to know that – and no, MOST of the problems cannot be traced back to the belief in God.

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      • I’m really glad to hear that about you, I got an impression from some of the things you’ve said, that there is a tragic story there, but if there isn’t, so much the better.

        Personally, I don’t believe in “good” or “bad,” but rather selfish and unselfish, and we Humans are capable of a mixture of both qualities, and not even a fear-ridden religion like Christianity, Judaism or Islam, is going to change that.

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      • Hi Arch, I’ve read the link you shared. I enjoyed reading it. It helped me to be more sympathetic with those who have left my faith. I, and many Christians, do not regard our faith as religious, but we understand that is how you understand it, so we don’t resist it so much.

        Anyway, a lot of the things he said was just plain common sense, and shows how becoming an atheist is quite like becoming divorced! It’s a loss, a broken relationship, a changed (and often for worse) social status…and it’s a journey many people walk alone because all the people who celebrated your marriage, and were there during it, may not agree with your decision to give up and divorce. It doesn’t make marriage bad (or the real relationship you once had with the person your imagination), because it doesn’t always work out.

        If I really thought about it, the people who say monogamy doesn’t work are really on to something! It is so hard! It is our nature to give up, to stray, to become selfish or whatever. Good marriages don’t just happen, like faithfulness to one’s faith for a lifetime. Jesus said that those who endure til the end will be saved, implying that IT’S NOT EASY and many will give up! And yes, you can say it’s because you saw inconsistencies and you just had to question them…and you followed that road to your new location in atheism. The same way, people’s marriages don’t fall apart overnight… At some point, you gave up the idea of love and faithfulness (I know there are many reasons for a divorce. This is based on a situation without violence and abuse).

        I do sympathise with him and others like him, and I won’t be smug and say I’ll never divorce God. If I do not abide in His love, most certainly, our end will come too, and my heart will break as all the others. So, not because I am brainwashed or anything, but because I have a personal relationship with God, I want to make it work. I believe in Him and I love Him, and I don’t ever want to find us on the road to divorce, I do not give the enemy the opportunity to instill doubt or distrust in God. Not that I never have my own doubts. Like I said in my post Faithfulness – Living With Your Choice, “Doubt is common. It’s not new. Giving up is easy. It’s not original. Faithfulness is hard. But it is redeeming”.

        That’s why Christians are also referred to by God as the Faithful.

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      • “The spiritual realm is a dimention that is not tapped by anything physically created yet…but God gives us access to Him through our spirits, and real exchanges that you cannot see or show anyone else, takes place in that realm too.”

        According to scripture Jesus physically appeared to his disciples and then to 500 after his resurrection . He didn’t ask people to believe he arose through faith. Because of the doubting spirit of Thomas , Jesus let him place his finger in his hand and in his side to convince Thomas he was alive , in the flesh.

        Why then do you feel we have to believe this same story through faith ? Wouldn’t it be totally appropriate for people to expect this same Jesus to appear in the flesh today as he knew he had to do 2,000 years ago ? Expecting more from us than he did from his own disciples doesn’t hardly seem fair, wouldn’t you agree ?

        There are numerous cases of God and / or Jesus revealing themselves in a physical way throughout the Old and New Testaments. The Adam & Eve Story. The burning bush. God speaks to the children of Israel from a cloud. etc. etc. etc. Why ? According to Scripture this was always to assure people that God was real. Why would we expect anything less ?

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      • I never said God doesn’t reveal Himself to us. Of course He does. My faith is built on His revelations. I was trying to say that spiritual things are not tangible, and God reveals Himself to us in different ways.

        However, Jesus does expect us to believe in Him without having seen Him. As you referenced Thomas’ experience, you should know where He said: Blessed are they who believe without seeing me…

        You can wait until the second coming of Jesus to believe, but I fear you might be too late.

        Cheers!

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      • “However, Jesus does expect us to believe in Him without having seen Him. As you referenced Thomas’ experience, you should know where He said: Blessed are they who believe without seeing me…”

        Let’s quote the complete verse shall we ? “Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:29) First we do not have any original manuscripts. Then we do not know for sure who wrote the book of John. Even if John wrote it, he personally did not witness Jesus saying this. You believe these things because you want to, not because there is overwhelming evidence they are so. As archaeology continues to make discoveries in the Middle East , Christians will continue to battle with “what they know verses what they feel”.

        Through discoveries of older manuscripts over the past 75 years we already know of numerous scriptures in the New Testament that were added later by redactors. Some were supposed quotes attributed to Jesus himself. This is why I determined the Bible is in large part a book of Faith. One has to make many assumptions to believe in it. Charles Templeton was a contemporary of Billy Graham. They were also close friends. He happened to be a very popular evangelist in Canada. He wanted Billy Graham to attend seminary with him so they could learn more about the Christianity they professed. Billy decided not to further his education. Templeton did and later renounced his belief in God. (Farewell to God by Charles Templeton)

        I have made many of the same statements you have made here . I am all too familiar with them. No one is knocking you here about your education. You seem like a highly educated and articulate woman. I think Ark, Arch and others have simply challenged you to study material “outside the Christian box” . We all tend to read material we are comfortable with. I believe reading what makes us uncomfortable makes us stronger.

        Thank you again for allowing my comments here.

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      • It’s ok, I appreciate your comments. I guess you can say I’m narrow minded because I hold my faith dear. I can say that the Devil is behind your rejection of what I know to be the Truth, and we could argue about that all day too.

        So, let’s save it and agree to disagree. Cheers!

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      • I can say that the Devil is behind your rejection of what I know to be the Truth, and we could argue about that all day too.” – I don’t want, as a guest on your blog, to be presumptuous, so I’ll ask – would you allow me to post a video on the history of the devil in the Bible?

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      • …we already know of numerous scriptures in the New Testament that were added later by redactors
        The story, KC, of “Jesus and the woman taken in adultery,” wasn’t added to the NT until the 4th century AD, and even then, it was placed in the Gospel of Luke until it was finally determined that it sounded more like something John might say.

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      • You can wait until the second coming of Jesus to believe” – He’s the one who’s running late, he promised to be back within the lifetime of some of his followers, but I’m guessing they’re all dead now.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Correction: I should have said, in all fairness to him, that one of the anonymous authors who never met him, REPORTED that that’s what he said.

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      • I’m sorry, I don’t know what this is about.

        I’m not sure why that should be – I went to great lengths to explain that the authors, “Mark,” “Matthew,” “Luke,” and “John” all wrote anonymously, and near the end of the first century. None of them ever met Yeshua, and pseudonyms were not assigned to the authors until well into the second century.

        Pseudo-Matthew, who copied 90% of his gospel from pseudo-Mark, wrote that Yeshua said, “I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28), yet 2000 years later, he still hasn’t arrived.

        I originally stated that Yeshua said this, then I corrected myself, saying that one of the anonymous authors who never met him, REPORTED that that’s what he said.

        Hope that explains it better.

        Liked by 2 people

      • Thanks for reading it. You might find other articles of Neil’s which may be of interest.

        I don’t think of leaving religion as a “broken relationship,” as a relationship requires someone real on the other end – rather, I think of it as an awakening, a realization that the Bible is a collection of myths, many borrowed from other religions and other cultures and set to papyrus or lambskin by anonymous authors who were just trying to make sense of the world in which they found themselves, using the limited knowledge with which they had to work. There’s a little wisdom in there, but it’s overpowered by so much nonsense that rather than wade through it, it’s simpler to just throw the baby out with the bathwater. And yes, I too have read the Bible multiple times and studied it’s origin extensively – when a book lies to me about a world-wide flood that it borrowed from the Sumarians, why should I believe anything else it had to say? You likened it to a relationship – how long should a man stay with a woman who tells him lie after lie?

        Has Uju contacted you yet? I gave her your URL, but it was quite late last night. I also gave you hers.

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      • Hi Arch. Uju and I are in contact now. Thanks.

        Sorry about your decision to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think you think I’m one of those who worships the Bible and believe every word is the infallible word of God. Well I’m not. But I do believe it’s a collection of God-inspired writings written by men to keep track of God’s ‘footprints’ (so to speak) on the Earth and ultimately point us to the real Word of God – Jesus!

        Jesus is the treasure in the Bible. He’s the reason it was compiled… that we may know of God’s plan and salvation. I won’t try and argue the Bible with you. Jesus is the Baby, and I’m hanging on to Him.

        Cheers!

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      • I think you think I’m one of those who worships the Bible and believe every word is the infallible word of God. Well I’m not.

        Yes, I absolutely did, and I’m so glad to hear that that isn’t so. Glad that you and Uju got together – don’t believe a word she says about me unless it’s glowing praise.

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      • That sounds good in print, but I doubt that most children even know the meaning of “rational decision“. If you think otherwise, Ufuoma, why don’t we let children marry as soon as their sexual organs develop? The choice to love or who we choose to love may not be a rational decision, but what we do about that love must be, otherwise babies would be having babies, far too emotionally and intellectually immature to adequately care for them.

        Liked by 1 person

      • How you seek to pervert the truth. I made distinction about the ability a child has to use faith and to love as opposed to the ability to apply reason, and you make out that I’m saying children should be allowed to make ‘rational decisions’ concerning sex and marriage.

        When I said even children can understand that faith and love are not rational decisions, I figured somehow the light of your understanding may come on. But I guess when you choose to reject God, you ability to discern goes out the window too…

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      • you make out that I’m saying children should be allowed to make ‘rational decisions’ concerning sex and marriage” – Not at all, clearly you misunderstood – I was simply extending what I previously said, that until the frontal cortex is fully developed, a young human is handicapped in terms of making rational decisions, and that expecting such a child to believe that 3000-year old priests were in touch with a supernatural being that performed magic, involves expecting that child to choose to believe at a time in its life when it is incapable of rationally sorting out fact from fiction.

        But I guess when you choose to reject God, you ability to discern goes out the window too…” – You’re putting words in my mouth that I didn’t say, and being a bit snide in the process, while I’m being nothing, if not entirely civil to you – I realize that our names are similar, but please do not confuse me with Ark. If you’ll reread the comments, please point out where I said I rejected god, any god. I have simply not yet been presented with any evidence that a god exixts.

        Actually, you haven’t even mentioned which god it is to which you’re referring, as Humankind has invented over 4000 of them so far. If in fact it is Yahweh, please use that name in our further discussions, so I can be certain we’re not speaking of Zeus or Odin. And while we’re on the subject of names, the actual name of the biblical character that you likely call “Jesus,” is actually “Yeshua” – “Jesus” is only the Greek translation of the Hebrew name. So in future comments, in order to keep the record clear, please use the names, “Yahweh” and “Yeshua,” should you need to discuss either of those entities further. Thank you.

        Liked by 1 person

      • I’m sorry for my snide comment. I’ve been thinking about it. I guess I still have a long way to go in keeping my flesh in check. I’ll work on being more civil in expressing my disagreements.

        About the first portion of your post. I think I need to clarify that NO ONE is born Christian. No one can even be raised Christian! But children are taught Christianity by parents and teachers, who want them to open their hearts and minds to God. This is called a ‘seed’, which is planted. Some of these seeds grow and bear fruit, in that, when the child grows up, he or she will come to their own understanding of God, and decide (when they are truly able to make a rational decision – and there is no specific age for that) to become BORN AGAIN. It’s a rebirth that happens when you come to PERSONALLY know God. Until you have had this rebirth, it doesn’t matter how many times you go to Church or do good in the name of God, you’re not really a Christian yet. This rebirth also allows the Christian to go deep in their faith and know things that only the Holy Spirit can teach someone. Which is why you would have a hard time trying to cause a Christian to denounce their faith. Unfortunately, many people don’t understand the difference between believing there’s a God, and believing in Jesus, and actually following Jesus. They lump everyone who ticks Christianity as their religion as Christians, and use that to discredit the true faith of Believers. The Bible says that ‘even the devils believe and shudder’, but it doesn’t cause them to live in submission and dependency on God.

        Now, to respond to your last part. I am sorry I cannot oblidge your request to use the names you are familiar with. I only recognise one God – who is the Creator of all the Earth, and His Christ as Saviour. I will never speak to you about Zeus or Odin or even Allah. So, I hope that clarifies it for you. I really don’t need that extra work, or to validate your beliefs in the existence of multiple gods.

        Thanks for visiting my site and contributing to the discussion. I’m sorry for all the times I’ve been impatient and short with you. I’m mostly stressed because I have so much work to do, and I’m spending so much of my time and thinking space responding to yours, Arks and other people’s challenges of my faith. But, I guess, it comes with the territory, so I need to make some adjustments!

        Have a great day 🙂

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      • I guess I still have a long way to go in keeping my flesh in check.” – No offense taken, believe me, I’ve been known to rip up one side and down the other, when I feel a commenter deserves it, but you’re a lovely lady and I’m still an old-fashioned gentleman, so you have nothing to fear from me.

        I think I need to clarify that NO ONE is born Christian. No one can even be raised Christian! But children are taught Christianity by parents and teachers, who want them to open their hearts and minds to God.” – Agreed, but from a slightly different angle:

        “It is an interesting and demonstrable fact, that all children are atheists, and if religion were not inculcated into their minds, they would remain so.”
        — Ernestine Rose —

        I am sorry I cannot oblidge your request to use the names you are familiar with.” – Now I’m REALLY confused! Your own Bible – Ex 3:6 and Ex 6:3 – specifically states that your god himself said his name was Yahweh, and anyone with only the tiniest knowledge of Hebrew, knows that Jesus is a Greek name, and that Yeshua was the actual Hebrew name by which the character you call Jesus, was actually called by his own people – do you think his mama called him Jesus? – yet you’re telling me that you can’t use EITHER of those names? Why in the world not? They are the names that the biblical characters, if they actually existed, would have called themSELVES!

        Liked by 1 person

      • I refused to use them based on your ascertion that I need clarify which god I’m talking about. I certainly know the names of God. I can say Jehovah, or I Am, call Jesus Emmanuel… but I don’t need to do that. You and I both know who I’m talking about, and to follow your instruction on this would be to validate the belief behind it.

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      • I can say Jehovah” – Not if accuracy is a great concern to you, “Jehovah” was a mistranslation of the original, “YHWH,” and it was later learned the name was “Yahweh,” but an awareness of that fact is just part of learning about the history of the Bible.

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      • Ok. You may not realise what you’re doing, but it’s what a lot of atheists do.

        1. You are belittling my understanding of a book my beliefs are drawn from
        2. By your continual attempts to teach by reference to scientific and theological knowledge, you’re basically communicating that you know it all, and the mere fact that I still hold to my beliefs despite all the ‘obvious evidence’ must mean that I am clueless and need to be taught
        3. You believe that your knowledge of the physical is all that matters, where as my knowledge of the spiritual cannot be accepted as real, since you cannot see it.

        I won’t use theology to convince you to believe, because it NEVER took theology for me to believe. The demand for scientific evidence in order to believe is all on you, because science can never add or take away from my faith in God.

        No one is argued into faith, and no one who truly believed can be argued out of it with all your ‘knowledge’.

        With all that said, I’d like to say I’m not your target audience. You might want to catch them young… you know… before they start thinking about the meaning of life and all that. But, you’re much too late for me.

        Cheers and have a blessed day, Ufuoma.

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  8. …don’t you think you’re wasting your life trying to convince the likes of me?” – I don’t expect to convince you of anything, you’ve been too heavily indoctrinated for too much of your life. I’m simply responding your comments and to those of others, in an attempt to demonstrate that there ARE other points of view. The waste, in your case, comes in spending your life, following a bunch of rules laid down thousands of years ago by men trying to make sense of their world, with the limited knowledge they had at their disposal.

    BTW, you have a lovely name. Have you met blogger Ujuh, who is also from Nigeria? If not, I could find her blog and drop you a link, you’d like her.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thanks for the warning, archaeopteryx1, but I’ll take my chances. The way I see it, I have nothing to lose and everything to gain. You may find my post on ‘If I didn’t believe in God’ interesting. Or you may just conclude that I believe because I’m weak and needy… But I know what I know, and I can’t describe the colour white to someone who has never seen it…

      I don’t know Ujuh. I wouldn’t mind the link, thanks. I appreciate that.

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      • …you may just conclude that I believe because I’m weak and needy…” – Not at all, just indoctrinated by people you trust, who were likely also indoctrinated by those THEY trusted.t

        You may find my post on ‘If I didn’t believe in God’ interesting.” – I’ll check it out, but I’m trying to get some yardwork done and I’m a natural-born procrastinator, so I need to force myself while the morning is cool, but I will get to it over the weekend.

        I don’t know Ujuh. I wouldn’t mind the link, thanks. I appreciate that.” – She is also Christian, and she and I have gone round and round, but I can assure you, she will have only the nicest things to say about me. I’ll drop her an email and give her a link to this site, OK?

        Liked by 1 person

      • I seem to have misplaced her email address when I switched over to another computer, but I will find it and get it to you.

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  9. Ufuoma, you wrote:

    “So the anti-God agenda gets free reign in schools and public spaces …”
    “… but made to think they have the same rights to their beliefs, its expression, association and life as others.”
    ” … we don’t need the world’s approval to teach our children …”

    Point #1 — I’m sure you would prefer that the “God Agenda” be taught, right? Even though this would offend those who don’t believe. It works both ways.
    Point #1 — Christians DO have the same rights to their beliefs , expression, etc. But those rights STOP when it comes to imposing these beliefs on others.
    Point #3 — You’re absolutely correct! So long as you do so within the confines of religious settings or in your own home.

    I can’t speak for everyone, but I’ve found most non-believers have no problems with Christians who practice their faith privately. It’s when they attempt to impose their beliefs and doctrines on others that difficulties arise. It’s important to remember we are all individuals and we want to live our lives the way that feels best to us. If this means being a church-goer and believing in the bible, so be it. By the same token, if we prefer to live a “godless” life, we should be allowed to do so without interference (or condemnations) from others who believe differently.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Bravo , Nan! This is what needs to be got across to those of a religious bent who continually whine they are suffering from persecution from the godless.
      And it resonates so much more with the vast majority of deconvertees who suffered indoctrination as children and had, by and large, no say in such matters.

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    • Hi Nan, thanks for visiting my blog and commenting too. I think what you’ve said is quite sound. Like I said in my comment to Arch on this post, I think that the major religions can and should be taught – but in separate classes (taught by true followers of those faiths), which the children freely decide to join. This way, children can learn about the religion they’ve been born into, and get more information on others, should they desire. But to remove religious education completely from the syllabus would be callous, and to have them taught by people who are ignorant of the true beliefs would also be careless.

      Cheers, Ufuoma.

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      • “But to remove religious education completely from the syllabus would be callous, and to have them taught by people who are ignorant of the true beliefs would also be careless.”

        And which religions do you consider “the true beliefs” ?

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      • I think you miss understood. I meant the true beliefs on each religion! I’m not opposed to a diversity of religions being taught. I quite enjoyed the days I read about other religions, and my faith was solidified by those times of study.

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      • It’s obviously night there, but there’s plenty of daylight here – I’ll read your other piece, “If I Didn’t Believe In God,” and we’ll likely speak again. Uju is probably in bed as well (I think she’s in Lagos), but let me know how that goes – like I said, great lady, you’ll like her. She’s outspoken too, I’ve always liked that about her – she first gained my respect when she wrote a post about her refusal to Anglicize her African name, I liked that!

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  10. Interesting exchange . As Ark and Arch know, I was indoctrinated from a child in the Christian Faith. As an adult , I took one scripture at face value. “but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good.” 1 Thessalonians 5:21

    Once I started to do this, I realized how human the Bible actually was. There wasn’t much to hold on to anymore.

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    • KC – not to worry, they’re just held in moderation for a little while, she lets them all through. HOWEVER, it’s night in Nigeria now, so she is likely asleep, so you may have to wait until their tomorrow before your comment is released.

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      • Ufuoma is no Colorstorm, but rather a fair-minded person – her only criteria appears to be “easy on the rude,” but that’s just common courtesy – unless rudeness is encountered (then the gloves come off). She’s far more of an actual Christian, than Colorstorm in his wildest fantasies.

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  11. As Ark and Arch both know, I was indoctrinated in the Christian Faith when I was a young child. As I got older, I took one scripture at face value. “Test all things and hold on to what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21) It was then that I realized how human the Bible actually was. There was very little to hold on to. As a Christian, “Your worst battle is between what you know and what you feel.” This is why I had to de-convert.

    Thank you for allowing me to comment here.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hi Kcchief, thanks for visiting my blog and joining in the conversation. I think I addressed the issue of deconverting in my response to Arch down below. Please read it. I don’t think your break-up with God is enough to say that your relationship with Him was never real…unless of course it wasn’t, and you were never really Christian, just born into a Christian home… I also addressed the difference between both experiences in one of my comments to Arch.

      Cheers!

      Like

  12. I am very happy to see that Nan and Victoria) on my blog) and now Ken have added their voices to this post. Being deconvertees each has had first hand experience of the destructive nature of Fundamentalist Indoctrination.

    They have been on both sides of the fence so are perfectly placed to offer valid, knowledgeable insights.
    While you might think I am ignorant on this subject you cannot so easily dismiss these good people, and if they say you are indoctrinated and ignorant of the facts then I reckon we can accept this as the truth of the matter.

    Liked by 2 people

    • I welcome their input, Ark. If any of them was forcefully converted, then I can understand how they could not abide in the faith, and I’m sad about their experience of religious experiences. I wasn’t forcefully converted. I also wasn’t indoctrinated. I was exposed to the faith as a child, and I saw many people reject it, and many people who claimed to believe but practice otherwise. I saw God moving in my life to personally convict me, and I was a gunner for Him, by the time someone sat me down to show me the Scriptures. The rest I learned from following God. I use my blog now to share my lessons and live them as everlasting testimonies for me.

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      • But you are a perfect example of the indoctrinated fundamentalist.
        You speech and thought patterns manifests in the way you write and your outright refusal to acknowledge science in this regard.
        You are a poster girl for the lies you have been brainwashed with.

        And they were exactly as you are now.

        Liked by 1 person

      • I would not consider it a compliment in any form, my dear, rather a warning to others of the damage religious indoctrination is capable of.
        Do you think there is anything virtuous about professing acceptance and adherence to Allah?
        Is there anything morally worthwhile about ISIS or Boko Haram?
        So why would you consider there is anything worthy about your religion. After all, you worship the same god … don’t you?
        .

        Liked by 1 person

      • But you all worship the same god. Besides, I am familiar with Christianity as I was raised in the culture.
        Anyway, as Boko Haram are on your doorstep ( more or less) I would have thought it in your best interest to familiarize yourself with Islam pretty damn soon, under the circumstances.
        I don’t think the Airforce bombing that forest etc has done the trick, do you?

        Like

      • It is my belief that Muslims have a wrong belief of Allah, as taught to them by Mohammed. Jesus is the true Revelation of God, and Muslims reject that because based on the teachings of Mohammed, Jesus is just a prophet. In which case, to believe in Jesus, the Son of God, is to reject Islam.

        The both do not agree, so the both cannot be true, and certainly, though they may appear to worship the same God, one worships God in Spirit and in Truth, while the other does not know the God they worship, because they rejected Him, as did the Jews.

        Like

      • Where are the comments I made that never showed up? And why not? I was never this discourteous to you!

        Like

      • Jesus did not believe he was a god. He even flat out rejected this idea.

        If you do believe he is god the you must accept he is the same god of the Old Testament.
        Which is the same god Muslim worship, only they use the name/term Allah rather than Yahweh.

        Liked by 1 person

      • No, I am afraid you are quite wrong. Your understanding is based on indoctrination, or at least willful ignorance and an unwillingness to study the history of the bible, its roots, its compilation and its etymology.
        Most Christians never actually even bother reading the entire bible, rather accepting Pulpit Christianity ( if you will excuse the term)
        And I would ask again. Please tell me the chapter and verse in Mark where Jesus of Nazareth expressly states he is Yahweh ( your god)

        Liked by 1 person

      • You boldly assert that I am indoctrinated. I likewise believe that you possessed of the Enemy. You either have no job, or you’re a lazy person, who has nothing else to do that to waste our time with your fake search for truth.

        I might be wrong… but can you even imagine that you could be wrong?

        Like

      • You’re of the kind Jesus spoke about who’s ever seeing but not perceiving, ever hearing but not understanding.

        Ufuoma, you have no idea what Yeshua said, as he is only quoted in the Gospels, who were written by anonymous men who never met him. I’m still waiting for you to tell me where my comments went —

        Like

  13. I’m not sure, Ufuoma, if it was your basic premise that you wanted me to re-read, or a single comment of yours within it, so I will do both. First, let me point out some areas of disagreement with your premise.

    When they can’t get us to denounce our beliefs, they attack His nature and qualities, as though by labeling Him as bad, we will suddenly wake up from our trance!

    I don’t know what others do, but I can hardly label “bad,” an entity that I don’t believe exists. I DO however, point out what the Bible states that its god did, and ask, if such an entity were real, and had done all of those things, why would anyone want to worship him/her/it?

    Also, they seek to disprove the Biblical stories with ‘scientific evidence’, even though the sphere of science is yet to be fully comprehended by the human mind!

    Frankly, I hope that Humankind never fully comprehends the sphere of science – how dreary would life be, if we ever knew all there is to know? From the day we came down out of the trees, Humankind has been explorers, whether physically or mentally – always wondering what is over the next hill, around the next corner – I would hate to see us lose that wonder.

    They arrogantly ignore the many scientists who have eventually had to conclude that ‘there must be a God’.

    “Eighty-five percent of the members of the International Academy of Science are atheists or agnostics.”
    — Neil deGrasse Tyson —

    That leads us to the final attack – the prohibition of religion.

    There is no movement anywhere to prohibit religion, merely to keep it in it’s place – in the homes and in the churches, mosques and synagogues.

    In the meantime, there are no restrictions on the filth that children are taught in schools concerning their gender and self-image, sexuality and relationships, evolutionary based science and the idea that their purpose in life is to be rich and famous!

    Frankly, I believe you need to rethink your definition of “filth.”

    So the anti-God agenda gets free reign in schools and public spaces, under the tolerance agenda, while people of faith are openly persecuted and abused, but made to think they have the same rights to their beliefs, its expression, association and life as others.

    Which religion would you see taught in schools? Could we fairly teach one, and not all of the others? “The true one!” you may well say, but the followers of each religion believe that theirs is true. And if all are taught, what time is left for academics that actually keep the world moving forward and food in the mouths of people? And before you say, “God will provide,” I suggest you look at areas within your own continent, where children with bloated bellies and matted eyes are literally starving to death, and tell me what your god has provided for them.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hi Arch, just to respond to your grand effort in responding to my post…

      I appreciate this and I appreciate you. Sincerely.

      I don’t think I would be happy with all the religions being taught at schools, but I think there should be the option to teach, and these can be courses the children choose, instead of teaching everybody a highly watered down and misunderstood version of their faith. If they had real buddhists teaching buddhism for instance, real muslims teaching Islam and real Christians teaching Christianity, that would be the better option. And of course, they could offer the evolutionary alternative to those who do not follow any religion or consider themselves to be atheists. I don’t believe it is too much work. If a school isn’t able to provide all the religious options, the major ones are at least important, considering how strong an influence faith and the lack there of has on the world.

      Cheers!

      Like

      • I don’t think I would be happy with all the religions being taught at schools” – Somehow I rather suspected you wouldn’t. Everyone religious believes that theirs alone is the one that should be taught.

        But don’t you think it would be more fair to teach the entire spectrum? That way a child can decide for him/herself which to pursue, rather than simply adopt the one in which they were raised. The optional classes you suggest would result in the child taking whichever class their parents insisted they take, in which case, that religion might just as well be taught in the home, or church, mosque, or synagogue, as it is now.

        For example, I have a collection of creation stories from cultures all over the world – my guess is, that after hearing all of those, students would quickly conclude that the Biblical one is just as nonsensical as all of the rest. If religions were to be taught in a public school, it’s only fair that children be exposed to, and allowed to choose from, them all.

        Like

      • I think you misunderstood me. Though I wouldn’t be happy (as in excited), I’d prefer and be content with children being given the option to learn more about the homegrown faith or even of alternative belief systems, instead of the outright ban on religion studies or even a highly watered down course on it.

        Liked by 1 person

  14. Ufuoma E-Ashogbon
    August 15, 2015 at 7:29 pm

    Did you read my comment at all?

    OK, I’ve re-read it all and still can’t determine to exactly which comment you refer – if you would, please copy it and paste it into a new message, and I will address it.

    Like

    • This is it:
      August 15, 2015 at 5:56 pm EDIT
      Ok. You may not realise what you’re doing, but it’s what a lot of atheists do.

      1. You are belittling my understanding of a book my beliefs are drawn from
      2. By your continual attempts to teach by reference to scientific and theological knowledge, you’re basically communicating that you know it all, and the mere fact that I still hold to my beliefs despite all the ‘obvious evidence’ must mean that I am clueless and need to be taught
      3. You believe that your knowledge of the physical is all that matters, where as my knowledge of the spiritual cannot be accepted as real, since you cannot see it.

      I won’t use theology to convince you to believe, because it NEVER took theology for me to believe. The demand for scientific evidence in order to believe is all on you, because science can never add or take away from my faith in God.

      No one is argued into faith, and no one who truly believed can be argued out of it with all your ‘knowledge’.

      With all that said, I’d like to say I’m not your target audience. You might want to catch them young… you know… before they start thinking about the meaning of life and all that. But, you’re much too late for me.

      Cheers and have a blessed day, Ufuoma.

      Like

      • Great, thanks – and here is my response:

        1. You are belittling my understanding of a book my beliefs are drawn from

        I don’t see it that way, I see it as expanding your knowledge.

        
”2. By your continual attempts to teach by reference to scientific and theological knowledge, you’re basically communicating that you know it all, and the mere fact that I still hold to my beliefs despite all the ‘obvious evidence’ must mean that I am clueless and need to be taught

        Not at all – a very wise man once said, “Each man is my master [the word, ‘master,’ originally from the Latin, ‘magister,’ meant, ‘teacher’] in that I may learn from him.” If you would disagree with that, it would imply that I’m not the one who thinks they know it all. Doubtless you know much that I don’t, as well.

        
”3. You believe that your knowledge of the physical is all that matters, where as my knowledge of the spiritual cannot be accepted as real, since you cannot see it.

        You’re half right, I don’t believe in invisible entities moving around anywhere in the universe – Delos B. McGowan once said, “The invisible and the nonexistent look very much alike” – but I believe in invisible qualities, such as love – human emotions that can’t be quantified.

        The demand for scientific evidence in order to believe is all on you, because science can never add or take away from my faith in God.

        I think that one of the saddest parts that I took from your original post, was your disregard for evolution, a fact so strongly established among not only the scientific community, but the rest of the educated world as well, that no one but the most rigid Fundamentalists deny it. My symbol itself, the archaeopteryx, was deliberately chosen because it represents a transitional species between dinosaurs and modern birds. By denying evolution, you ignore all of the wonder that has caused all species of life on the earth – and the other lifeforms that have gone before – to change and adapt to changing conditions, and that’s as close to miraculous as any of us will ever get.

        You might want to catch them young… you know… before they start thinking about the meaning of life and all that.

        Nah, no need to employ Christian tactics – but when asked, I do tell children what I believe.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Thanks for reading and taking the time to respond to my original comment. To me, I see evolution as the only alternative offered to people who reject the idea of a god. Should someone arise with a competing explanation, half of you will jump unto that boat! It is a baseless and fraudulent teaching, and I will never succumb to it. If that makes me a fundamentalist, so be it.

        As to me being a know it all, because I reject your attempts to indoctrinate me on evolution, I’ll take that bullet. Anything that will send the message that this house of mine that I call a soul is OCCUPIED! No room for your influence here.

        And you know, this invisibility and non-existence thing is a tricky road to follow. The Internet is a real entity, as in it exists. But please, can you trace where all these millions of data goes once you hit send? Or, maybe using credit cards is an example. By faith you swipe your hand, and you believe that millions of money will make it across to someone else’s account – but you don’t see the handover or cashflow. The spiritual realm is a dimention that is not tapped by anything physically created yet…but God gives us access to Him through our spirits, and real exchanges that you cannot see or show anyone else, takes place in that realm too.

        Like

  15. won’t use theology to convince you to believe, because it NEVER took theology for me to believe. The demand for scientific evidence in order to believe is all on you, because science can never add or take away from my faith in God.

    So if you were not convinced by theology, and you were not convinced by scientific evidence just what was it that did convince you?
    Seriously, I am curious to known just what it was that made you become a Christian, and a Fundamentalist Christian to boot.

    Like

  16. “To me, I see evolution as the only alternative offered to people who reject the idea of a god. Should someone arise with a competing explanation, half of you will jump unto that boat! It is a baseless and fraudulent teaching, and I will never succumb to it.”

    The last 3 Pastors of Churches I attended before my de-conversion believed in Evolution. They just happened to believe God started the process.

    Like

      • None I guess. I just happen to think there are more Christians who happen to believe in Evolution than not. Even the Pope has urged Christians to believe in evolution.

        Like

      • I hear that a lot about the Catholic Church, from fundamentalists, but the truth is (and I’m certainly no friend of the CC either), that the Catholic Church kept Christianity alive (though not much else) for a full 1600 years, before the rise of Protestantism – without the CC, the Christian religion would have died a quiet death millennia ago.

        Liked by 1 person

      • Oh yeah, they got so “good” at burning thousands of people at the stake who didn’t agree with them, that they became quite expert at it. Are you saying they can thank your god for that?

        Liked by 1 person

      • No I’m not. Like Joseph said to his brothers who sold him into slavery – You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. It was horrible what happened, but I thank God that I heard the gospel.

        Like

      • So thousands of people were burned alive so that the gospel could be spread, that told the story of a god who could allow thousands of people to be burned alive, just so his gospel could be spread. Yeah, that’s some role model – I’m sorry you can’t see that, and equally sorry that you seem to have no empathy for those thousands who died in agony just so you could hear the gospel.

        Like

      • Yes, not only for the thousands who were murdered heinously during that thousand years, by Christians, in the name of their religion, but for those today whose bodies today are in the 21st century, but whose minds sadly remain in the 1st.

        Like

  17. ” I guess you can say I’m narrow minded because I hold my faith dear. I can say that the Devil is behind your rejection of what I know to be the Truth”

    This in a nutshell sums up the concern of many non-believers . You just stated, “your rejection of what I know to be the Truth”

    Like

  18. Interesting, some of my comments seem not to have shown up – and after I spoke SO highly of you – et tu, Brute? Arrggggghhhhhh —

    Like

  19. A number of the comments I made are still missing, including my last comment about my comments being missing – I feel that is rude without at least an explanation as to why they’ve been withheld.

    ***Editor’s note: This comment and a few others by Arch (which you might have noticed) accidentally got spammed, and were retrieved by me once he pointed out to me that he hadn’t been able to comment on my site on Ark’s blog.***

    Like

  20. I’ll ask again, why are you not allowing my comments to appear? What have I done or said to you that could possibly cause you to ban me?

    Like

  21. Arch, as you are quite knowledgeable in the history of Christianity, your most recent exchange here only affirms what Christians have done to those who “question” for the past 2,000 years.

    Like

  22. What about those of us who find your “duty to spread the good news” to us as invasive and insulting? I think you would find a great deal of tolerance from the 17 percent of Americans who don’t believe what you believe–er, I mean, are persecuting you with their aggressive disinterest–if you kept your beliefs to yourself.

    Like

    • Hi Chuck. Thanks for stopping by my blog and commenting.

      I understand your plight, and you are as free to your opinions as I am. To deny me of my right to express my beliefs, whether dispassionately or aggressively or by manipulation of laws which infringe on my right to religion are always considered persecution. Ultimately, we are all struggling for the equal expression of our rights to humanity and figuring all these things out. I don’t mean to disrespect you or others who do not believe as I do, I only mean to honour God.

      Have a great day!

      Like

      • I understand your plight, and you are as free to your opinions as I am.” – Apparently that doesn’t extend to everyone, as you quit allowing my comments to publish. Interesting to find, in a blog entry condemning censorship, that you would censor.

        Like

      • Which blog entry did I make that condemned censorship?

        Everyone has the right to manage their domain how they see fit. I’m the publisher here and the moderator here, and I do not relinquish my privilege and right to anyone!

        I also have never censored you. But if you’re afraid that I might because I’ve sensored one of your friends (who I’m sure you know had it coming), then I don’t know how to appease you. I don’t intend to censor and I don’t do it without cause, but the button exists for a reason. Maybe your problem is with WORDPRESS for giving me that right, the same as your fundamental problem with my faith is with the God I believe in, and not me.

        Like

      • Which blog entry did I make that condemned censorship?” – THIS one! Maybe you should re-read it, the entire article is about censoring religion!

        And you deleted at least two of my comments the last time I posted here – I even criticized you on Ark’s blog, for doing that (feeling that any such criticism here would also be deleted), and you replied you were only exercising your right.

        Like

      • Arch? I never deleted your comments and I thought we had already cleared that up? And I told you that if ever your comments were not going through you can always reach me by email. I can’t check my spam everyday just in case your messages fall there.

        Comments on my blog are censorable! It is not the same as censorship in the public sphere of the world against religion! You’re jumping through huge hoops to make your case against my right to moderate on my blog!

        Like

      • What exactly is your case Arch? Are you still accusing me of deleting your messages or having a tantrum because I exercised my right to censor your friend? Please state your case clearly, because I’ve stated mine clearly.

        Like

      • Please state your case clearly, because I’ve stated mine clearly.” – Ok —

        Are you still accusing me of deleting your messages or having a tantrum because I exercised my right to censor your friend?” – On a post criticizing censorship? Yeah, it seems just a bit hypocritical. But I’m not sure that “tantrum” is exactly the right word – disapproval, maybe —

        Like

      • Arch, are you still accusing me of censoring you??? Because what you just did was lie and pretend that I censored you to fuel your ‘disapproval’. You still neglected to answer me on that! How convenient. I didn’t expect that from you. Hope you perceive my disapproval.

        Like

      • Wonderful! The biggest of all lies that needs no examination. Good day, Arch. Thanks for finally revealing your true colours to me.

        So you know, your disapproval means as much as the sand on my feet to me. I’m dusting it right off.

        Like

    • I just got a vision of pairs of roving atheists, going through neighborhoods, knocking on doors and asking, “Have you heard the bad news?

      Like

  23. This is where we need to start…with the children. We may be blocked from many public places regarding the mention of spiritually, God and/or Jesus. But with our own children, and in some cases, children we come in contact with in some settings, we can teach the love of the Savior with little resistance. A good post with an important message!

    Steve

    Liked by 1 person

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