Once in a while, something the opposition says is true, and must be carefully considered… However in a state of war, we may prefer to deny the truth in what they say so that we can point out how they missed the mark overall. But, I don’t think people of truth should behave that way. We owe it to the truth to accept it, however it is thrown at us! It also lets our opponents know they are dealing with credible, sincere people…and hopefully, it might disarm them against resisting the truth in what you are saying as well.
Declaring that one agrees with an Atheist may be considered betrayal or even spiritual suicide (seeing as you gave concession to the voice of doubt), but here goes anyway! This lady responded to a post I made on another blog:
“Obviously from Paul’s point of view being wrong would mean, as you said, that god is real and there is no savior. No forgiveness for sins.
For my own personal interest: what if there is no god? In that “wrong” scenario, I suppose remaining in our sins would lose all meaning. And perishing would only matter to those who believe because they want eternal life. Paul doesn’t speak to my question because god was always on the table and eternal life was a big selling point.
But really, my only problem with Christianity is its need to destroy doubt entirely. Not in Jesus, but in the religion that has been built around Jesus. It’s dangerous, especially when you consider how detailed the list of things you cannot doubt have become. We can thank the Bible and church leaders for that. You believe Jesus died for our sins? Great. Go ahead and stand firm on that. If it makes you happy, that is wonderful.
But it doesn’t stop there. Christians everywhere are plugging their ears and stomping their feet when any part of the Bible is questioned, never willing to consider that they could be wrong about anything at all. It isn’t realistic. And from an outsider’s point of view it is terrifying. Using that method, any horrible idea man can create can be backed by the word of god. We’ve seen it happen, and in spite of what many may believe- it does not have to be an ugly side to faith. It can be overcome.
It’s irresponsible to be blind on that count. You owe it to god, Jesus, and anyone worth consideration to be critical of what has been passed down; including historical church decisions, and anything Paul had to say.
It doesn’t have to be all or nothing. When Christians come back with the answer: “Yup, I looked into it and it turns out I’m still right about everything in the universe because god has revealed it” I have a hard time taking them seriously.
If questioning man’s interpretation of god is a slippery slope toward doubt, it is only because it dissolves much of what we know about god. So what? Maybe we don’t know as much as we think we do. If that simple truth causes you to be “shaken by doubt” then maybe you need to be shaken.
I doubt I am the only one who agrees with her on the points I have highlighted. If I was truly the only one who agreed, then there would be really no such thing as denominationalism. The Church would still be governed by one authority, being the Roman Catholic Church. But many before me, questioned their exercise of authority, their understanding and application of scripture, and decided to think for themselves, believing that the Holy Spirit is still in the business of leading all of us to the truth.
Problem is, every new denomination that arises likes to state the beliefs that they expect everyone to accept without question! Is this an advancement or a game of control? The way I see it, the Truth is one big mountain that God calls each one of us to navigate, with Him as our guide. However, someone learns a new truth and decides to set up camp around it, while ignoring the Spirit to move on up! Others join him or her to settle there, and what do you know, they have a church! Someone else questions their flawed teaching, because it doesn’t take into consideration other truth, and moves on up. Unfortunately, they tend to also find a comfortable spot on the mountain to set up camp!
Those who hunger and thirst after God’s righteousness, though they may linger for a time at certain spots (or camps or churches) on the mountain, their allegiance to God’s Spirit alone causes them to arise and continue up the mountain at His leading! This is what it means to live by faith, and to have a personal relationship with God.
Jesus taught us that the least in the Kingdom of God is greater that the greatest prophet that ever lived (Matt 11:11)!!! Can you even imagine that? Yet, you would not suspect at all, because Christians everywhere hang on the message of the prophets, while rejecting Christ’s own words! We revere Paul’s and Peter’s words to the status of God’s own words, while we are afraid to even try listen to God ourselves! It is on this basis, that a fellow believer told me he couldn’t fathom why I would say that the Bible is fallible – because how then can he be sure what God says???
God gave us each a conscience, such that even those who did not have the law observed the law (Rom 2:14), as it was embedded in their consciences! God is greater than our conscience (1 John 3:20-21), and His Spirit was promised to us, to lead us into all truth (John 16:13). We don’t need to afraid of what He will reveal to us (Luke 11:11-13). We can use our conscience as a guage, and the Bible as a guage, without making either the voice of God! We have to submit all that we think we know, and unplug our ears, if we want to hear from God at all!
It is as if we are back to the time of the Israelites in the wilderness, when they asked Moses to go up alone, that they will wait at the bottom of the mountain and do what God tells him to tell them. But we, who are born again into a new covenant, are called to be a royal priesthood, where each one of us journeys with God up the mountain of truth! Do we learn from others? Yes. But we do not discard our own ability to reason, if we are genuinely interested in the truth.
Faith is strengthened while challenged, and all ministers of truth must be refined by that fire. The truth is not our enemy, and if we let it refine us, it will truly set us free as Christ promised (John 8:32). That is when we prove our faith to be genuine, and based on true personal knowledge of God, rather than a mindless submission to tradition.
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Categories: A Different Perspective, Critical Thinking, Issues of Life, The Latest, True Religion
Grace and Truth 
Wow. I like this post a lot!
Hey, maybe we should start our own church?
Kidding. I think. 😀
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Funny! We don’t need another one, God is already building His Church, no matter what we think we’re doing. We just need to encourage each other to keep an intimate relationship with God. We will surely fellowship, and be together in the end 🙂
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Amen!
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Reblogged this on Talmidimblogging.
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Hugs!
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Hugs and Cheers Sister!
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Reason tells us by its very nature that there is a limit to reason. From that point we have to be willing to discern and accept Divine revelation. That’s called faith. I agree that tradition is a good guideline but not to be followed religiously or in a legalistic manner. The existence of multiple denominations is contra-bible. But realistically we are still fallible and exist in a corrupt world and that effects our reasoning as well. Consequently it’s important to depend on the Savior to correct us and the course we’re taking when we are wrong. A very well thought out article!
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Thanks! I appreciate your contribution 🙂
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You’re very welcome 🙂
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Paul applauded the Bereans for examining his teaching by the scripture (written Word of God), not scripture itself. He equated scripture with the Word of God, just as Jesus did. But if the Bible is the mere words of men who ‘tried’ to do a,good good job of writing down what God breathed into them, in what way does God speak to us we can really trust? That is a serious question.
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I really wish you would drop this argument with me. It’s not going to bear positive fruit. You’ve given it a good go, and I’ve stated my mind succinctly. I also believe I have already answered your question on how we can hear God in my post.
Have a blessed day.
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You did hint at receiving private direct revelation from God. That opens up a huge can of worms, but I won’t go there.
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If you’re wondering if God has given me a revelation for you, I can’t say that He has. But I do not deny that God still speaks today… maybe not with audible words, but He makes His will known, and no, it doesn’t always happen when I’m reading my Bible. God gives dreams and visions, God speaks through our still small voice, God leaves impressions on our Spirit to direct our actions. God even speaks through unsuspecting people! You’ve got to be willing to hear Him, before you can discern Him. Maybe the Bible is the only means you are able to hear from God because that is the only avenue you choose to listen to Him through.
Cheers, Ufuoma.
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Thank you for your honesty. You confirmed much for me, but I don’t need a revelation from you, nor do I want one. Scripture is sufficient. I guess I’ll just remain at my ‘lower level’ of spirituality. Good day.
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Hey Dan, reposting this, as I suspect you might miss it if it’s only to Ufuoma in this thread
This is for both of you. Peace.
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@ Dan and Ufuoma
Hi beloved. And I mean that. Just some thoughts from me quickly, and I suspect my thoughts will turn your attention from each other and towards me. Eh…that might be a good thing. I can take it, so fire away LOL.
Ufuoma. I believe completely in the inspiration and infallibility of The Bible as we have it. Every jot and tittle. I believe you are mis directed in this area. But, I have no interest in arguing. I believe your heart is in the correct place and that the Holy Spirit will guide you to truth. That is His job, not mine. I do feel, and share with you honestly that you are simply incorrect in this area and I think it is very potentially dangerous thinking for you. I love you my sister.
Dan. From my perspective, as a staunch Cessastionist I might add, here is what I observe. You may not mean this, but you sort of present as if the Holy Spirit has no ministry in Today’s Church. I understand your fear totally…sure do. I do think, however, that our fear of all things Charismatic often leads folks like you and I to practically deny that the Holy Spirit can move in any way He chooses. Don’t misunderstand me. I am not saying God speaks in voices today, or that extra Biblical, in particular counter Biblical revelation exists. On the other hand, I believe the Holy Spirit guides my life in every single aspect, many of which are not addressed in His Word. And guess what? I am not always reading my Bible when I feel the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit on me. So, my counsel to you would be…relax. There are not as many heresies out there as you suspect. I love you as well my brother.
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@ Dan and Ufuoma
Hi beloved. And I mean that. Just some thoughts from me quickly, and I suspect my thoughts will turn your attention from each other and towards me. Eh…that might be a good thing. I can take it, so fire away LOL.
Ufuoma. I believe completely in the inspiration and infallibility of The Bible as we have it. Every jot and tittle. I believe you are mis directed in this area. But, I have no interest in arguing. I believe your heart is in the correct place and that the Holy Spirit will guide you to truth. That is His job, not mine. I do feel, and share with you honestly that you are simply incorrect in this area and I think it is very potentially dangerous thinking for you. I love you my sister.
Dan. From my perspective, as a staunch Cessastionist I might add, here is what I observe. You may not mean this, but you sort of present as if the Holy Spirit has no ministry in Today’s Church. I understand your fear totally…sure do. I do think, however, that our fear of all things Charismatic often leads folks like you and I to practically deny that the Holy Spirit can move in any way He chooses. Don’t misunderstand me. I am not saying God speaks in voices today, or that extra Biblical, in particular counter Biblical revelation exists. On the other hand, I believe the Holy Spirit guides my life in every single aspect, many of which are not addressed in His Word. And guess what? I am not always reading my Bible when I feel the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit on me. So, my counsel to you would be…relax. There are not as many heresies out there as you suspect. I love you as well my brother.
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The Holy Spirit certainly does operate. I hope I have not communicated otherwise. He illumines/guides/leads in ways we cannot even imagine, through the Word (the Bible). He does not operate apart from the word. I definitely believe in the work of the Holy spirit, just not VPN’s to God. I did at one time but have moved away from those thoughts. Reading the Word of God convinced me. It was long before the Strange Fire conference.
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@Dan, it sounds as if you are saying that if it is not in The Bible, then God is silent. There is MUCH in our lives that is not in God’s Word, yet we are guided by the Spirit. I really don’t think using words such as “VPN to God” help much, as they sound very sarcastic. You keep tossing out that the Spirit only works through God;s Word. Fair enough. But when you say that, you seem to imply that only the things in The Bible are guided by God. Maybe that is not what you mean, but it seems that way. Let’s take blogging, for example. I am pretty sure you would say God called you to do this, right? Well, He certainly never mentions blogging in the Bible, so how did this calling occur? Well, a desire, a yearning, a pressure on your heart maybe? Under your own rules, you can’t have been called to blog, because God’s Word doesn’t cover that. I know you don’t mean that, but that is how it is coming out.
Or hinting that anybody is saying you are less than spiritual.
Try not to be such a heresy hunter.
@ Ufuoma, if you are saying you think Dan is less spiritual, you need to stop. And if you think that God’s talking to you has more weight than every single word of the Bible, including the word’s Paul spoke, you are incorrect and need to stop.
Speaking of heresies. Your earlier, from way back, statement that to believe the Bible in it’s entirety is inspired and infallible is a heresy was quite inflammatory and really helped fire up this entire multi post tiff we have going in here. It is certainly NOT a heresy. Same to you, don’t be such a heresy hunter.
And that is my point to the both of you. I hate to just toss this out, but frankly, the words between the two of you have become less about what God teaches, and more about what you each believe. I am sorry to do this in front of the entire blog world, but I don’t know what else to do.
Peace and love to all
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Sarcastic? Might be. But isn’t that what we are saying if we claim private personal revelations? Again, I mention my use of the hypothetical IF. That means I claiming my beliefs are inerrant. I use the big IF on myself a LOT.
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Hey Dan
Look, I have expressed pretty clearly what I think about some of what Ufuoma has said. The key being…what she has said. Honestly must have missed her claim of direct personal revelation.
In fact, I would be the next person to say something like “God placed in on my heart.” Am I making that claim? Well, no. And to say I am would be unfounded and inflammatory.
However, since my goal here was to diffuse an argument, having one would be very…stupid. Therefore, peace, as I have said what I wanted to the both of you.
@Ufuaoma. Read above.
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I’ve read your comments Wally, and I think your backing away from an argument with Dan is wise. I however, had no desire to argue with you or Dan or anyone about this. However, with your continous warnings to me about taking such a dangerous stance, I was moved to write my newest post. It’s called: What Are You Afraid Of?
If you do not feel the need to respond, I will understand, but I want to be clear that I take my stance with a sincere heart and an informed mind. I do not believe any revelations I have received from God to be infallible in anyway. We have a relationship, and I won’t deny that He speaks and He also inspires me to write.
Sincerely
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No Ufuoama, I read it. Well written as usual. Of course there’s not much in there I agree with, but at this point I won’t debate it. I do think you stance is dangerous both to you and the people who read it. But, I also love you greatly, and I don’t want you to go away, I just want you to come to truth.
You aren’t trying to get behind the pulpit in my church and say this, So I won’t chase you down in your own pulpit either.
Peace
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Peace to you, too!
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Wally, I have primarily just asked questions that mostly went unanswered until now. And I think my questions are those that we all need to consider and deserve answers no matter what I personally believe. That’s why I asked them. The most glaring example of direct personal comms with God is the heretical ‘Jesus Calling’ that has sold millions of copies and has been approved of and even prompted by formerly sound Bible teachers. So I ask questions.
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Well yeah..not so much a fan of that book myself. I get it Dan, I really really do. You and I are almost in lockstep here as far as what we believe. But, as you know my current series on my own blog has specifically to do with..how do we deal with a brother or sister we feel is straying. It’s been an eye opener( I was going to say it’s been a revelation, but figured that might be poor word use. 🙂 ) At any rate, it has been a learning thing for me to realize that God has taught me that the first thing do with an erring brother is not club them in the head with a two by four. Trust me Dan…I get your position more than you suspect.
The goal is restoration. That is all I am saying here.
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Well, maybe we’ll all be better for having had the discussion. For that to happen one must be open to the possibility of being in error. That’s one of the reasons I ask a lot of questions and make hypothetical statements. To get us thinking.
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Well said! Excellent post!
My personal feeling is that God reaches people in many ways, speaks to them in many ways, often astounding me at just how far He will go to reach one of His lost children. A good deal also has to do with the motivation whether for example the Bible is believed in meekness and humility the mind open to its wonders or as a club to justify personal non negotiable standpoints.My usual criteria to measure is “is it loving” (understanding that “tough love” also exists for a reason – ultimately God is also a judge – He’s not a milk-sop) I think the real root of the problem is when pride comes in the door.
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Thanks for your thoughtful contribution! I’m glad you liked the post 🙂
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